No Defense Needed: Or How Conservatives & Progressives Both Act Stank

Submitted by earthgarden on Wed, 08/06/2008 - 3:10pm

Some of the conversations I read on hipmama and other progressive sites are remarkably similar to some of the conversations I read on conservative mama sites and other sites that are, to put it mildly, less liberal. There is this tendency in both groups to pin folks to the wall to declare their opinion on a subject and then blast them if they are not progressive or conservative or whatever enough. It's like you can't be 'right' unless you either agree (for the 'right' reasons no less) with whatever it is or do a ballerina-acrobat dance of tight-roping and side-stepping your opinion, just to avoid being attacked.

For example, say it's a conservative mama site. Bottle-feeding comes up. You say you think breast milk is best. Next thing you know you're up against the wall, and it's implied you're a saggy-titted hippie who hates mothers that bottle-feed and you're probably some psycho who wants to blow up the formula factory.

For example, say it's hipmama. Polyamory comes up. You say you don't sleep around. Next thing you know you're up against the wall, grilled incessantly about why you think monogamy is best, and it's implied you're some backwards brainwashed prude who is somehow oppressing people by only sleeping with one person.

Actually what prompted this was the thread on pot smoking. Lotta twigging out in that thread, sheesh. Is it like that, must I declare some allegiance to drug use or else I'm not down? have mercy. Folks can have an opinion that something is not for them without it meaning anything about you. Really.

I hate self-censoring but I hate these silly internet flame wars more. On these volatile topics or any topic where I see folks taking other people's choices so personally, I'm gonna say my opinion as to if something is right for me and keep it moving, no defense or explanation. Because really, you don't have to explain or justify to anyone why you do whatever. And really, what could I possibly say to someone who takes others' choices/opinions so personally that would satisfy them? No matter what, it's deemed wrong, period. or twisted to show that you're attacking them, their lifestyle, the universe, the space & time continuum, ha. As if your opinion actually affects their life, as if it makes the slightest whit of difference in what they do or don't do. Sheesh! LOL

Being up against the wall is a voluntary position, I'm just now realizing. Gosh, I can be so slow sometimes. Lightbulb! I don't have to participate in that, I can just say my opinion without getting into the 'reasons why', without allowing others to pressure me into justifying, explaining, or rationalizing a darn thing, and without allowing others to minimize my feelings and opinions as not valid or as not 'right'. You do you, and I'll do me. Some things we'll agree on, some things we won't. And you know what? that's ok.

Comments

dahlia

Wed, 08/06/2008 - 3:19pm

http://xkcd.com/386/

DH and I joke about this... When one of us is annoyed the other will ask what's up. "You don't understand! People on the internet are WRONG! I must school them."

"HELP them, babe. Your work is sacred..."

earthgarden

Wed, 08/06/2008 - 3:24pm

ha ha! That is so funny. get a grip people! LOL :)

Positive Emergence
Blessed are the flexible, for they shall not be bent out of shape. ~Author unknown

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Love is, above all else, the gift of oneself.
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Maatkare

Wed, 08/06/2008 - 3:24pm

http://startswithvee.wordpress.com

"Overcome the angry by non-anger; overcome the wicked by goodness; overcome the miser by generosity; overcome the liar by truth." -Buddha

bitch-face

Wed, 08/06/2008 - 5:59pm

oh that is hilarious!

Maatkare

Wed, 08/06/2008 - 3:29pm

Mercury, remember that previous post you made about how vegans sometimes make non-vegans feel like shit because they're not vegan, and why can't everyone just let everyone else live their own lives? I think the same lesson applies here.

Something I've noticed among liberals is that a stereotype that exists for liberals is that we are supposed to be more open minded. We chastise the conservative end for being close-minded. Yet, liberals can be, and often are, just as close minded as conservative folks, just about different things.

Similarly, conservative minded people can be just as open minded about issues, it's just that their opinion leans more on the conservative side.

It all goes back to having to be right. If your way is the right way, then you are superior. If you are superior, then you are not inferior. It's all about that survival instinct.
http://startswithvee.wordpress.com

"Overcome the angry by non-anger; overcome the wicked by goodness; overcome the miser by generosity; overcome the liar by truth." -Buddha

earthgarden

Wed, 08/06/2008 - 3:39pm

Something I've noticed among liberals is that a stereotype that exists for liberals is that we are supposed to be more open minded.

yah, I have noticed this too. I'm always so surprised when I come across a 'liberal' or 'progressive' person who is so uptight about stuff because I really expect them to be more open-minded! it's like it's all about being 'free' and having 'choices' but only if you believe in the right things as mandated by the liberal police.

Hands down the experiences that have astonished me the most are my ones with feminists when I was a young woman. Folks twigging out 'cause I chose to have kids young...as if they had no idea that reproductive freedom is just as much about the right to have babies as it is the right to terminate pregnancies. the funniest, one time at this feminist meeting they went off on me for baking cookies for my children! By the time they got through with me I was June Cleaver and I didn't even know it LOL. That one still knocks me out. but in retrospect I was silly for even thinking I had to justify why I baked cookies for my kids.

Positive Emergence
Blessed are the flexible, for they shall not be bent out of shape. ~Author unknown

biz & etsy & books
Love is, above all else, the gift of oneself.
~Jean Anouilh

Maatkare

Wed, 08/06/2008 - 3:48pm

I'm a feminist, like, totally and completely. But I'm a feminist in the true sense of the word, you know? It's about equality and freedom of choice and being able to vote and all that.

I used to get flack from feminists, though, for working with kids. I was accused of furthering the stereotype that child care was for women. In fact, all the teachers at my school were women. Let me tell you, the feminists around here did not like that one bit! But for me, I enjoy being a teacher because I can pass my crazy notions of gender equality on to kids. I mean, isn't that a good place for a feminist to be?

It was there that I learned that I never have to explain to anyone why I am who I am.
http://startswithvee.wordpress.com

"Overcome the angry by non-anger; overcome the wicked by goodness; overcome the miser by generosity; overcome the liar by truth." -Buddha

turtle

Wed, 08/06/2008 - 10:55pm

I mean that in only a slightly derogatory way...

it's funny you bring this up cos I was just reading a post over at anti-racist parent blog where the family decided to leave their church after the pastors had questioned whether their (adopted from Haiti) child had HIV. Someone commented that the family should take the opportunity to educate their brethern in Christ instead of leaving the church. I was talking to my husband about it and he commented, "oh well, because like all good liberals, they believe conservatives [or racists, etc] just need to be educated and they will see the light."

Perhaps this accounts for why some people are so vehement in their opinions. I don't know if it's what makes conservatives equally vehement (I actually don't hang out with too many conservative folks! and when I do, we don't talk politics). But it's actually kind of offensive to assume that people just need educated. I mean, maybe some people *don't* have all the facts or haven't considered the alternatives and maybe there is room for "growth" or for people to change their minds. But some people- lots of people, hold their opinions after a good deal of thought and introspection and research. And so to tell them that they just don't know any better- that's kind of rude! I think.

Now, when you come to hot button issues like vaccination or drug use or racism or home birth - issues where I've seen flame wars develop faster than wildflowers in California, here as well as other listserves I belong to and blogs I read - well, of course things are going to heated. I figure I know that coming in and am prepared to bend over backwards to be respectful and speak from my own perspective alone and not tell people with different opinions that they are idiots or whatever (even if I think that privately). Not everyone feels the same way. What're you going to do? Apart from asking people to be respectful, there's not a whole lot to be done to stop this kind of dynamic.

And, actually, I'm not sure I would want things to change. Sure, I want everyone to get along but sometimes I do learn something, gain new perspective myself from these kinds of discussions. And that's cool.

Find ecstasy in life; the mere sense of living is joy enough. -- Emily Dickinson

You want to do what you think is right and what matters to you, and if other people don't like it, as my father would have said, they can go fuck themselves. -- Amy Bloom

earthgarden

Wed, 08/06/2008 - 11:19pm

but I'm talking about the 'if you don't agree with me or do the things I do, or even approve of what I do then you're attacking me/my lifestyle/my family/my way of raising kids/my whatever' dynamic.

The implied giving away of power is stunning to me. Like I don't spank my kids, ok. I really don't care if someone else thinks I am a bad mama because I don't hit them. It's just their opinion, they can't make me hit my kids. So I'm always surprised when someone twigs out over my anti-spanking views. I'm like, what, do you think I have some power over you or something? You have not only the law but thousands of years of human culture standing behind you, supporting your right to hit your kids whenever you feel like it. Who cares what I think.

I think you are too right with the education angle. I was like that often...like with being a vegetarian (again with that example LOL) I used to think that folks didn't know, they didn't even know! how bad meat was and how it's produced and blah blah blah. I used to think if I just showed them the way they'd put down their steaks and happily take up tofu eating. ha ha!

I'm scrolling back through some of my past blogs and comments, and lord I used to write some tomes up on here! defending-clarifying-explaining-bending-over-backwards trying to earnestly show what I meant. long-winded thesis statements that could have been distilled into a sentence or two. Second sentence being, I don't have to explain a thing.

Positive Emergence
Blessed are the flexible, for they shall not be bent out of shape. ~Author unknown

biz & etsy & books
Love is, above all else, the gift of oneself.
~Jean Anouilh

mamaneen

Thu, 08/07/2008 - 8:46pm

and i think the parents over on that arp thread had absolutely no obligation to make their pastors' racism a "teaching moment", but i am guilty of believing that exposure to specific information about a topic can change a person's mind sometimes. generally, though, it's because whatever specific information i'm referencing has changed and/or shaped my own thinking on whatever specific issue. i get the flaw in this, having been the unteachable omnivore to many a vegetarian just as evangelical as mercury says she used to be, but i also think it, like most things, can have positive as well as negative effect because vegetarianism aside, such educating efforts have been a positive for me.

as to conservatives, i'm of the opinion - strictly mine, of course - that they don't want to educate, they want to convert, and that's a whole different tactic. good liberals believe that if you have the "right" facts before you, then you'll make the "right" choice. good convservatives believe there is only one reality, and they can see it, and if you'll just convert, then you can see it, too - no facts, right or wrong, are really relevant.

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Monarda

Thu, 08/07/2008 - 4:26am

right on.

mamaneen

Thu, 08/07/2008 - 8:35pm

what you find so distasteful, but to my way of thinking, a conversations that went

person a, "i think X."
and person b, "i think Y"
the end

just wouldn't be a very engaging or interesting conversation. growing up, my ma made it clear that it was just as important to know why i thought what i thought as it was to have an opinion in the first place, perhaps more. so, when someone presents an opinion, i'm interested to know how they got to it. clearly, making the assumption that other people have a similar interest in how i came to my own conclusions can be an error, but it can also be part of engaging in thought-provoking dialogue. i'm not saying folks don't get out of hand sometimes in real and virtual life {i'm working on my own shit re: those issues}, but i am saying that i'm willing to risk that - not that you have to be or have to care that i am.

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"if i pass for other than what i am, do you feel safer?" ~ lani ka'ahumanu

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earthgarden

Thu, 08/07/2008 - 9:02pm

I'm talking about the 'if you don't agree with me or do the things I do, or even approve of what I do then you're attacking me/my lifestyle/my family/my way of raising kids/my whatever' dynamic.

this is what I mean:

person a, "i think X."
and person b, "i think Y"
person a "i think Y not for me"
person b "why?"
person a "valid reason #1"
person b "wrong! not valid/good enough reason"
person a "valid reason #2"
person b "wrong! not valid/good enough reason. here's long ass reason why"
person a "well it's valid for me"
person b "so what! your reasons are WRONG"
person a "valid reason #3. again, for me"
person b "wrong! not vaild/good enough reason and what about me/mine"
person a "i not talking about you. not care what you do. talking about me"
person b "wrong! you include me/mine in reasons for why you do/don't do whatever. you fail. you suck"
person a "valid reason #4 which not inclusive of you"
person b "fail! ignorance! oppressor!"
person a "huh? i didn't even say all that. i don't even - whatever. look just talking abut me/mine! do what you want!"
person b "wrong wrong fail fail. read this book/listen to this tape/watch this video/earn a phd on this subject. then you're qualified to talk about whatever"
person a "what the - look it is ok if I do/don't do whatever. get a grip. you're crazy"
person b "that's just what I'd expect you to say about me/mine/my people/group!"
person a "ok. sigh. look - valid reasons #5-20"
(repeat prior steps like 10 times)
person b "you hate me! it's people like you who oppress me! you don't know anything! you're ignorant/uneducated/blah blah blah"
person a "fine i'm sorry, i'm ignorant, i suck. you win"
person b: mollified till the next round

Nothing learned. so why not just cut the chase. I'm finally realizing I don't have to even go through all this. If I'm talking with someone who is willing to actually hear my words and understand my choices and opinions are valid for me, sure I'm willing to talk to them. but enough of the being pinned against the wall and told I have no very right to make the choices I have and have the opinions I hold. that's not thought-provoking dialogue to me. and I say that having participated as person a AND person b. I'm so over it :)

Positive Emergence
Blessed are the flexible, for they shall not be bent out of shape. ~Author unknown

biz & etsy & books
Love is, above all else, the gift of oneself.
~Jean Anouilh

mamaneen

Thu, 08/07/2008 - 9:14pm

the sorts of dialogues you describe can be messy and exhausting, but i've still learned from them, and so, at least for now, i'm still up for 'em. that works for me. so, i guess now we've both said, "i think x/y", and this is the end, right? ;-) i'm tryin' to get the hang of this.

Lilypie4th Birthday Ticker

"if i pass for other than what i am, do you feel safer?" ~ lani ka'ahumanu

dragon knows dragon

Lilypie Kids Birthday tickers

"if i pass for other than what i am, do you feel safer?" ~ lani ka'ahumanu

dragon knows dragon

earthgarden

Thu, 08/07/2008 - 10:25pm

Positive Emergence
Blessed are the flexible, for they shall not be bent out of shape. ~Author unknown

biz & etsy & books
Love is, above all else, the gift of oneself.
~Jean Anouilh

dahlia

Fri, 08/08/2008 - 12:28am

This made me lol, for real!

Sometimes when I read those "hot button" threads, I'll suck in my breath and just shake my head thinking, ohhhh, no she didn't just post that shit! Here come the goddamned dirty, stolen grapes* again!

*Just wanna add, I really do not care about people eating a couple grapes in the grocery store, I don't care if anyone reading eats pesticides, it's YOUR business, not mine. hehe

earthgarden

Fri, 08/08/2008 - 12:34am

LOL the grape thread will never die! it will live on in hipmama perpetuity. or great-great-grandaughter hipmamas will still be talking about it! ha ha

Positive Emergence
Blessed are the flexible, for they shall not be bent out of shape. ~Author unknown

biz & etsy & books
Love is, above all else, the gift of oneself.
~Jean Anouilh

weirdmama

Fri, 08/08/2008 - 1:14am

i'm a little diappointed that i can't find the legendary grape thread so i can see what all the fuss is/was about! i did a search earlier and i found nothing (besides some old "what's for dinner"s featuring.... yup, grapes!!). oh well, maybe it's better left in the past.

Monarda

Fri, 08/08/2008 - 1:17am

there will be another thread that has the same basic features eventually. It's sort of a cycle. You'll have your "grape thread" experience. ;-)

dahlia

Fri, 08/08/2008 - 1:51am

I've been tempted to say "dirty grapes" in the same tone one might say "sour grapes". Even irl, outside HM.

And yes, mommymash, you will have your dirty grapes too! lol I kinda thought the pot thread would turn into that. It sort of was for a minute it seemed.

Catmama

Fri, 08/08/2008 - 2:14am

Patience, little one, patience.

Just know there are many factors that need to take place.

The position of the moon, tides, weather indoors, weather outdoors, who's slept, who's PMS'ing, who jus ate a gassy burrito.......

all these finite dynamics must be in place. I would liken it to Hale Bopp's comet.

.

weirdmama

Fri, 08/08/2008 - 9:53pm

there are many variables involved when creating the hip mama Perfect Storm of blog posts, huh?

i can't stop laughing right now.

Maatkare

Fri, 08/08/2008 - 4:24am

It's still going, isn't it? At least last I checked. I did get tired of it though. Too much blame and shame in that one.
http://startswithvee.wordpress.com

"Overcome the angry by non-anger; overcome the wicked by goodness; overcome the miser by generosity; overcome the liar by truth." -Buddha

earthgarden

Fri, 08/08/2008 - 2:04am

whoever starts a thread can delete it anytime. or it just might be lost in the archives. the search on hipmama is so busted...

Positive Emergence
Blessed are the flexible, for they shall not be bent out of shape. ~Author unknown

biz & etsy & books
Love is, above all else, the gift of oneself.
~Jean Anouilh

bleu7102

Fri, 08/08/2008 - 3:59am

Mommymash, this is just for you, http://hipmama.com/node/18493 .
I may be mostly lurking these days, but I'm good for something ;)

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Catmama

Fri, 08/08/2008 - 2:53pm

I thought it was deleted with my old screen name.

.

Monarda

Fri, 08/08/2008 - 3:01pm

It's not as bad as some. In terms of the personal flaming I mean. And Mercury was dead-on about the privilege thing.

Catmama

Fri, 08/08/2008 - 3:03pm

There have been way worse. I guess it's like legends, they just keep getting bigger.

.

dahlia

Fri, 08/08/2008 - 3:13pm

In my mind that discussion stuck out as being SO bad. It really wasn't though...

Interestingly, some other battles, ones I was actually involved in, have kinda shrunk in importance. There were a couple statements sent to me in email that actually made me shake with anger, and now I'm left wondering why? This person I didn't even know personally who probably made up half the shit she said made some totally off base crack at me and it made me feel anything at all? THAT baffles me.

Catmama

Fri, 08/08/2008 - 3:22pm

I think your personal frame (and timing) of mind when you engage makes all the difference.

.

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