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courage of conviction...the holes are still thereSubmitted by punkmama on Wed, 01/17/2007 - 9:52pm.
ya know the tired old parable about the little boy whose dad tells him to hammer a nail into the fence every time he is angry, and to take one out every time he is sorry? then the little boy says, but daddy all the holes are still there? that sappy shit? Another thing along these lines that I'd like to point out is that these discussions are the thread & net of the history of our community as well as being the community itself. Deleting posts/blogs/users also leaves holes in the net/fence of the community that we live in. Holes that leave parts of discussions out of context. Holes that cause our history and community memory to be skewed and forgotten. Bee & I both very strongly believe in owning one's words. It's so easy to say & sometimes so very hard to do. I see the benefit in gaining a new identity on occasion. I've done it myself (although here, I'm always Susan) -- I do still have my original hipmama user name (MariansMama) but I only use it as a test account. It's very freeing. My personal preference would be if you're going to take on a new user name, not to ask us to delete the history of your old one -- the holes, the holes! That said, I understand that it's easy to get lazy and forget that this is a public community, forget that we are a fishbowl which has many people watching (but what pretty fish are we!). I understand there are psycho ex's out there. Etc, etc. Our preference is not to put holes in the net, but there are times when I take a deep breath & remember, the net will not shred & unravel -- another thread will come in and hold the net together. So, pardon the shift & mix in metaphor. These are things that I think about somewhat regularly as online personas appear & disappear. "Do not forget. Remember and warn." Yep. We read along, even if we don't comment often. "Do not forget. Remember and warn." I think it's rather sad that read,educate yourself is spouted and then when i look up a definition because the one posted was completely different from what i thought the definition was and i get ridiculed. interesting dynamics. I don't think anything, especially a very complex social condition/construction/however it is seen fit to be described, is as simple as Webster. And honestly, I think reducing it to such a degree is dangerous. I didn't say that in it's entirety it was that simple. but what i was told was the definition was completely different than what i knew it to be,(so since i don't just take what people say as truth), I looked it up. I was told being a racist isn't about color, to me it is in essence about color,so i was trying to find out if i was totally off base. Jessica that I've been hanging out here today for the first time in a long time, and I've been impressed with much of what you wrote. Thank you. having missed this round of infammatory words and revoked statements -- oh wait, were they revoked? or as i am understanding things just removed? - i have nothing to say about THAT particular carp but as to what Punky is saying -- it doesn't help anything to pull a post because "shit is slung", all that does is remove the phrases and replies from the public view it does not remove the "damage" doen to the community and the folks involved in the fray again i did not read anything that went down this time, BUT i am sure I do NOT have to to know the basics while i soo agree that we should seriosuly THINK before we post we ALL know soemtimes we post to rant or ramble and thoughts are not always so clear or concise AND sometimes we NEED that BUT ALSO we the readers of blogs need to keep a distance from the topics as UNLESS THEY ARE DIRECTED AT YOU they are NOT & that can be dificult when we the readers feel an affinity to the topic in any way, or a personal "investment" in a belief these are BLOGS, mama dears -- these are written for a variety of raesons -- soemtimes to ask for discussion to be sure BUT even then -- well soemthing that happened to me in real life comes to mind -- i was approached at a party {where i knew very few people and the ones i did i knew only surfacely, much less than i know many of YOU} by a new mother who i felt a little cornered by when she learned i had 4 kids and she wanted to keep picking my brain, i answered her questions in what i belived were casual conversational ways, by no means was i trying to "impart my knowledge" as if it were WORD and i was trying to talk to others so i was keeping it light and basic, well bits & pieces were over heard and judged, someone else referred to me as "the know-it-all" this other person was judging my part of the converstaion biased by her own feelings instaed of viewing the entire dialogue for what it had been and how it had been begun, i was in shock to learn she had taken my words that way often mamas on the boards are misread and what to them is seemingly casual or definetely non threatening or attacking blows up into a real shitstorm -- and it is no one's job to be the "expert" on anything here & we shouldn't make anyone feel as if she should be NOR judge anyoen by SAYING she IS being that -- at that party i was only being polite & answering the questions i was asked because i felt it would be rude to NOT give this new mother my pov we do need to realize the mamas on here are only humans and ABOVE that they are MAMAS -- over-worked, under appreciated and our generation is also "burdened" with trying to manuever thru new issues in parentinga nd relating, never before have we had to deal with some of these topics and we have not been taught how to cope or "properly" discuss these things we are learning, we are forging new understandings and BECAUSE of THAT we need to be more lenient and more understadning of each other when trying to unravel these VERY hot topics REMEMBER the woman behind the words you see before you when you log on is ANOTHER mama who is living her life the best she can, maybe w/o enough sleep, w/o enough emotional support, w/o the having walked in YOUR shoes & you have not walked in hers very good points. thank you. of course! I missed the thread in discussion but I love what you wrote here! Yes, even though we are not all face to face our words do have an impact on those who are involved with this community. And simply deleting them in a blaze of fury or embarrassment does not mean that all is done and over with and everyone can move on and stop discussing the issue(s) - the hole is still there (I love that!). I also believe people should be forgiven and given the benefit of the doubt as much as humanly possible - even though I can't always patch the hole up in my memory I try to look at the newer piece of board that has yet to be nailed. A bird does not sing because it has an answer. It sings because it has a song. - Chinese Proverb i am not suggesting that we either hold on to it NOR let go of it. i said that all elsewhere, on one of the deleted threads. i am all about forgiveness, but i like the concept of compassion better. i can't patch the holes either, in fact, i think trying to patch them might be a waste of energy. maybe just seeing them, knowing they are there, letting them BE is more natural. and see if they heal on their own. or, live with the fact that some just won't, and that is alright. "If moderation is a fault, then indifference is a crime."-Jack Kerouac right on , pm, - i'm right there with you. A bird does not sing because it has an answer. It sings because it has a song. - Chinese Proverb You know, I had a similar experience with a hipmama that I worked it out with too.... Yeah, I know what you mean. As I tell my DH, you are not speaking into a vacuum. Just because it was said and then apologized for, (or deleted when it is here), it does not go away. It doesn't mean that people on here need to bring it up every time you show up. Or make snarky comments at you. It also means that people who repeatedly make the same kinds of mistakes over and over again should maybe look behind them and see the holes they have left, and stop making excuses and claiming how much they have learned while making digs at the people they have repeatedly hurt in back handed apologies full of excuses. Not talking about anyone specifically, just talking about frequent patterns. It also doesn't mean you have the freedom to bring it up and play the victim card but not want anyone to mention what you said and why it was so destructive, in their opinions. These are not directed toward the most recent incidents or necessarily the people involved, because I have been studying, working, and applying to med school and I truly have no idea what happened this time, but I can imagine it is the same crap and may even involve some of the same old players. Just like Mercury has posted less and less, and is avoiding certain topics, I stayed away even before I was so busy because of these holes in our community and I know many others who have posted less or left for similar reasons. I am sarcastic and can have a bizarre sense of humor, but I try to leave it out completely in these discussions. I have told my son this and I truly believe it. The more furious the person has, usually the more likely it is that the person is wrong. I learned as a debater years ago that the sarcastic bullying exploder is never the one the judges go for. Sunflower the unflower because here is how i think...the craptastic things you mentioned...the snarky comments, the playing the victim, that is all our own internalized patriarchal bullshit. it is the heirarchy, internalized. and the heirarchy is inclusive of racism, classism, homophobia, ageism, androcentrism, sexism, all of them. and i think that most of us as women have felt the pain of somebody stepping on our backs on their way over us, even if we didn't know what to call it. and when we divide over who is in the most pain, or whatever, WHATEVER, instead of teaching each other about it and letting ourselves BE TAUGHT, we are perpetuating it. holding on to it without working through it makes us mean. it makes up no better than anybody else. cause you are teaching your kid right, SF, the one who is the most pissed, the angriest, is usually wrong. mistaken, clouded by the intensity of their feelings and their attachment to their feelings being fact, when of course they are not. "If moderation is a fault, then indifference is a crime."-Jack Kerouac "i think that HM has helped me more than anything to do that." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." - Nietzsche i've deleted, and felt pretty slimy afterward. but if memory serves, it wasn't because it got heated, it was because it contained personal shit that i wasn't comfortable having up in public. i think it goes to being mindful of your words, the reminder we get every time we hit "new blog entry," incidentally. now that i have been here a while, i am learning that i impact dozens of people when i put my words up here. and your comment on the deleted thread about "getting all jerry springer in your face 'you're not going to silence me' and shit" applied to me at times. it wasn't directed at me, but it does apply to me sometimes. it's never been how i intend, but it has been how i have come off to people, and that's my fault. i have my own opinions about the honorable way to handle mistakes. i feel very strongly that one should never own a mistake that they don't agree is a mistake, but always owning the ones you do. no more, no less. total honesty. so in that respect, i don't see anything wrong with the latest deleted thread. it was honest, you have to give it that. offer explanations if you think it will help, but never apologize for something you don't think is wrong. but other everyone does not feel that way. some feel it's more important to try to regain the peace that's lost. whatever. but ... what was that nietzche quote? someone has it as their sig. convictions are more dangerous than lies? “They think I do not know a buttload of crap about the Gospel, but I do!� has that quote. and yikes, i am not endorsing keeping the peace, or regaining peace. if shit needs to sting, so be it. but i think you are saying such important stuff, about being honest and congruent. i would rather somebody be unapologetic and authentic, even if i don't like them, than being apologetic in an attempt to appease. like i said in my (now deleted) don't get over it response. don't get over it or let it go. let it be, but work it out. sit in it. when you can't sit in it, let it be. so on and so forth. here is what i am saying...you can't unring a bell, so ring it if you want to, but the thing about convictions...what i am saying is that if you doubt the courage of your convictions, GOOD. if you leap out there anyway and it takes a nasty turn, sit in it. let it BE. these are words mostly for myself of course. i get jerry springer in my least together moments too. "If moderation is a fault, then indifference is a crime."-Jack Kerouac """i am a passionate, opinionated, well-read, highly educated person. i am also an incorrigible smart ass, and i can be a real bitch when i choose to. every day, if i look, i can see another reason to choose not to""" Me too. I think it gets confusing around here though at times. I mean, I posted a picture that I thought was funny (a very fat man strolling naked on the beach with a VERY small penis) I've been here long enough now to have seen many "blogs" get nasty and I do believe a lot of mamas never do "let" go of their resentments toward that particular mama and they always seem to resurface later on. Some do "bury the hatchet" though so that's cool. KUDOS to you for working it out with the mama you had in down with! It has not always been that easy for me, but I'm from a big Irish family and we're still working out the North and South. "Actually, no, I should not be able to (at least not here in the general form) and I understand that now, BUT it does get CONFUSING and I think that is where a lot of blogs go awry and people get labeled as "this and That" Catmama, from the deepest of my heart, I am saying this in the spirit of love and good intention, I have watched you over the past few years lash out horribly on anyone who has ever challanged you on your view of the world. Everytime you have said something or put something out there that has hurt or offended someone you have accused them of having an ulterior motive in finding offence in your words. Have you ever taken a step (like reading a book, or a website about racism) towards making this un confusing for yourself? You are missing out on some incredible 'teaching' moments here. * I blame men * |
and I agree so much that we have to stand by our convictions. i would prefer people choose to listen to their better selves in their interactions with each other on this site and everywhere. I always have liked the format here where we have time to stop, collect ourselves and hopefully say what it is we want to say, not just what is at the tip of our thoughts. But if things go poorly, there may be something to be learned there as well. Either way, hiding from the things we have said publicly is cowardly and not something I have much respect for. I understand pulling blogs if they are more confessional and theraputic for ourselves as individuals, but might cause personal upset by their continued presence on the board. I find this different than flinging wildly insulting or provocative posts out there then yanking them out of what I do believe is a sense of shame or embarassment over the content and/or the reception said post recieves.
thanks for your wise words.